Interview with Andrei Bokertov, from Thirsty Church, the Largest Russian-speaking Online Adventist Church

Recently, we spoke with Andrei Bokertov, who represents the largest online church for Ukrainians, Russians, and other Russian-speaking people. They are dedicated to preaching, revival, reformation, printing, book distribution, and producing content for their YouTube channel. The video and transcript of the interview are available below.

Andrei Bokertov: Brother Andy, I am ready to start with all my questions. We have many questions, and please answer as your heart would like to answer, so don’t hesitate. Our group consists of Ukrainians, Russians, and other Russian-speaking people, and because we are pretty far away from what is happening in the United States right now, we would like to receive as much information as possible, both about our General Conference and about the session of the General Conference that ended. So my first question is: as I understand, you were born into an Adventist family, so surely you have been to more than one General Conference session, and I believe you attended the recent General Conference Session. So, in general, how do you evaluate what happened there, how it happened, and what was going on? I’d like you to provide me with a general assessment, just your thoughts on what happened.

Andy Roman: Yes, my parents were Seventh-day Adventists before I was born. I’ve been told they became Adventist because a colporteur was giving out Great Controversies. So I’m looking forward to the day when I can meet the person who was handing out the books. I want to meet him in heaven, and I want to thank him for his effort in sharing the truth. Because of his effort, I’m in the faith; I was born in the faith. So we don’t understand the influence that we have by sharing the gospel.

Yes, I have been to several General Conference sessions. This was my fourth one. I pray it’s the last one. We want Jesus to come. But in general, without getting into too many specifics just yet, the emphasis on missions at the General Conference Session was wonderful. The call for the Latter Rain, the prayers, and the emphasis to finish the work are very much needed. A lot of the things that were said were wonderful. However, there are some challenges that unfortunately were not addressed. And these issues that were not addressed are critical for the ultimate success in victory for God’s people and for the Latter Rain. So the people were nice. The place was nice. The event was nice. But as we understand from the study of God’s word, that’s not enough, my brothers and sisters. God wants us to have an experience. And that experience includes taking actions that will help to bring about the Latter Rain.

We need the Latter Rain to finish this work. But the first thing we’re told from the Bible, the very first thing the Holy Spirit will do, as Jesus says, is reprove the world of sin (John 16:8). This means our lives have to come in line with the Word of God. And therein lies the challenge. We don’t want to address the issues that God is not going to ignore and that we cannot just sweep under the rug. God told Joshua, before they entered the Promised Land, “Rise up and sanctify yourselves, for tomorrow you will enter the Promised Land.” (Joshua 7:13). That is the same instruction for us today. We must evangelize and pray for unity, but we must also work to purify God’s people so that we can enter heaven.

Talking about purity is not going to bring us purity. The only way we’re going to enter heaven is not with the words, “Well said, you good servant.” No, not with “well said.” God will only welcome us into His kingdom with the words, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant” (Matthew 25:21). If what was said at the General Conference session is translated into actions, it was a success. But if things continue the way they have been going for years, and nothing changes, it was a huge failure. So, my brothers and sisters, that is my short but general assessment of the 61^st General Conference Session.

Andrei Bokertov: I have two separate questions. The first one is about delegates—how are they chosen to become those who go to the General Conference Session. But at the same time, I’m interested in how the presidents and the leaders, are being elected. So can you clarify that for us? In general, how it was usually done, because of how they voted this time at the General Conference, was different, as I understand.

Andy Roman: Okay, to answer the first part, there are two kinds of delegates. The church describes them or classifies them as the regular delegates, and then the delegates at large, or the general delegates. Regular delegates represent the churches at the local level and are selected by the different unions. Generally, those delegates can be the local conference presidents, they can be pastors, they can be lay people, they can be anybody the unions choose to send. Those are the delegates that represent the local churches. You and I and most of the members don’t vote, but our vote is represented by those regular delegates.

Now the other kinds of delegates, the delegates at large, are those who are in positions of trust in the General Conference. These are men or women who hold positions either in the divisions or that represent the different institutions of the church. The department heads at the General Conference, the members of the executive committee, and certain visitors whom they choose. They try to have a representative form, or a full-spectrum of representatives to represent all the different levels in the church. The only concern is that the majority are employed by the church. Whether that has any influence, that is to be determined when we see the results.

Andrei Bokertov: It looks like it has some impact on the decisions that they have made, because they are being paid by the church already, so they are not independent.

Andy Roman: Yes, and one of the principles of a free society is that you have a government, or let’s say, people in positions of leadership, people that are of the people, for the people, and by the people. One of the godly principles that we see in Scripture, and Great Controversy emphasizes this through the Spirit of Prophecy; we see a lamb-like power in prophecy in Revelation 13. That lamb-like characteristic means that the people have to lead and guide the lamb. The lamb doesn’t impose or force anything. You have to lead it; the people have to lead it. We’re talking about a system of elected officials that is voted on by the people. It’s the voice of the people, not the voice of the government or the leadership. It’s the voice of the rank-and-file members of the church. An area of concern is that we would like to see a higher number of representatives who are lay people who are not on the church payroll.

Andrei Bokertov: So brother Andy, according to your answer, I should not be surprised that Ted Wilson is being chosen for the third term already.

Andy Roman: Another one of the principles of a free society—now there are many, but another one of them has to do with term limits for leadership. This is something that has been instituted in every nation that has a constitution. There’s a reason for this. There’s a reason why even in our American constitution we have an amendment that says only two terms; that’s it, no more. Those who came to America looking for freedom were trying to escape persecution and abuse of power. The founders of what is now known as a free society were attempting to prevent the equivalent of a monarchy, which exists in many nations. When you have a monarchy, you have a monopoly. And then you have what is called a President for life. This may appeal to many people if we say, “but he’s a good president.” The problem is that there are no checks, there are no balances, there is no accountability, and it creates—we may not see it, but God sees—it does create situations that we may want to avoid among God’s people.

We have had good secular leaders like George Washington, the father of our country. He served two terms, and he did not seek any more re-elections. He was concerned with establishing a precedent for any future president, and he didn’t want to do more. He said, “If I die while being president, then people will think that a president is for life.” He stepped down after two. He chose to do that on his own. And that later became part of the Constitution, our Twenty-second Amendment. You’ve heard of Nelson Mandela, from South Africa. He served just once, and then he allowed the power to go to somebody else. I believe—this is my personal view—I believe that the election of Ted Wilson for a third term is a dangerous precedent of seeing leaders in power for way too long. I believe that a lot of wisdom came as a result of a lot of suffering, which is why constitutions state that there must be limits.

Andrei Bokertov: If someone is being elected for the third or the fourth time, what are the results we should expect?

Andy Roman: One of the immediate results is that nothing is going to change. Whatever the direction we’ve been going in for the past twelve years, it seems like that trend is going to continue. We will continue going in the same direction that we have seen in the past.

Andrei Bokertov: So it looks, brother, like someone wants to make sure that we do not receive the Latter Rain, and the coming of Jesus Christ?

Andy Roman: Well, what happens, what we’ve been told in inspiration, is that God is going to take the reins of the work into His own hands. And she goes on to say that we will be amazed at the simple means by which this work will be finished.

“Let me tell you that the Lord will work in this last work in a manner very much out of the common order of things, and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning. There will be those among us who will always want to control the work of God, to dictate even what movements shall be made when the work goes forward under the direction of the angel who joins the third angel in the message to be given to the world. God will use ways and means by which it will be seen that He is taking the reins in His own hands. The workers will be surprised by the simple means that He will use to bring about and perfect His work of righteousness” (Last Day Events, p. 203).

She is saying that those efforts to control the work, which is the whole machinery, the system that seeks to force the direction—we don’t have to do it, my brothers; God is capable of doing it Himself. She says that all those things will be removed during the time of the Latter Rain. So yes, that is one of the areas that needs to be resolved if we really want the Latter Rain.

Andrei Bokertov: I am really anticipating all of those events. So let’s talk about the church structure now. I have two questions: To what extent does the structure of the current Adventist church match the ideal model of how the church of Christ should function? And another question: How strong is the church structure right now?

Andy Roman: Let me read to you something from Inspiration. Review and Herald, November 8, 1851. We are told, “The Bible sets before us a model church.” We’re told that the Bible contains the model that we’re to follow. But where is the model? Acts of the Apostles, page 91. She tells us the “organization of the church at Jerusalem was to serve as a model for the organization of churches in every other place.”

When she says, “the church in Jerusalem,” that’s not talking about the Sanhedrin; that’s talking about the New Testament organization of the Apostles. And if you want to know how God did things when the Early Rain fell on the disciples, then we’ll understand how the Latter Rain will work, because it’s the same Spirit; it’s the same gift. And I’d like to just look at just one example, so that you can see the difference, the disparity, of how far we have come from God’s model, from the example that He wants us to follow.

If you look at Acts, chapter 6, the church needed to expand the leadership. The twelve apostles could not do everything. And then if you read verse 2, it says that the twelve called the multitude of disciples. All 12 called the multitude, not one man. Peter didn’t say, “Listen, I’m the pope.” No, all twelve did it. Why all 12? Because Jesus says, “There’s only one Lord, and all of you are brothers.” And then it’s very interesting if you read verse 3 of Acts chapter 6. You will notice how the entire church participated in the elections. In verse 3, the apostles say to the multitude of all the disciples to find the men that meet the qualifications that God wants. And when you find them, then we will ordain them. And you can read in verse 5 who the men were; you will read in verse 5 how the entire church was united, and the entire church participated, and the entire church—it says it pleased them; they were happy. The church was happy.

Now, the disciples didn’t say, “We’re going to select these people because we’re the apostles.” The apostles did not say, “We have a committee, and the committee is going to pick who the leaders are.” That’s what happened in St. Louis. A committee does everything. And the committee doesn’t come up with 2 or 3 names; the committee gives just one name to the delegates. And the secretaries and the ones leading out at the General Conference Session tell the delegates, “This one name, you can vote on this one name.”

Andrei Bokertov: How can it be called an election when there is just one candidate?

Andy Roman: Listen my brothers and sisters, the two horns of the lamb-like beast—one of them is a free and open election. And I don’t know how much you have seen elections; one name would not work here in America. One name doesn’t work in a free society. There are some societies and some civil governments that only give you one name. I won’t mention what countries those are, but there are some countries where there is only one candidate, and they get 100% of the votes every year. So yes, my brothers and sisters, when we look at the model church, which we are commanded to follow, everybody participated; everybody had a voice. It was truly representative. They didn’t need a secret vote; they didn’t need to manipulate anything. The Holy Spirit was in charge; the Holy Spirit was king. And what is the result? When we follow the New Testament model given to us, you can read in Acts 6:7 that the Word of God increased. The closer we get to God’s way, the better everybody is, and the better things turn out for everybody. God’s name is glorified, and we, as a body, move together, we walk together, we don’t leave anybody behind.

Andrei Bokertov: I have a couple of thoughts according to what you just said. If I’m incorrect, please correct me. When I’m looking at the structure of our denomination, it reminds me when I think about church. There is some hierarchy, and there is a vertical structure; it has a vertical structure. It seems like the more we fight against the Roman Catholic system, the more we become like them. Because they have this Episcopal system at the root of their being. What you’ve been talking about, I would call it a congregation. When the whole church is choosing from among itself, the ministers who will be ministering, if I said something incorrectly, please let me know.

Andy Roman: Yes, there was some representation in the early Christian church. And that representation, there were elders and pastors, or the apostles, so there were officers. There’s no question that there were officers. But whatever title you have, whether you’re an administrator, director, manager, elder, deacon, whatever title you have, that title goes underneath our real title, and that real title is “servant.” We’re all called to be servants. There’s only one Lord, and our Lord is also a servant. In Philippians 2:5 and onward, we read how Jesus was in the form of God, but when He came to this earth, He took the form of a servant. Not just a servant. He went even lower; He became a slave, to give His life on the cross for each of us. He didn’t come to dictate; He came to serve. When we are no longer servants and we want to become lords to dictate and to rule and to control, as you rightly stated, that is part of the apostasy of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. 2 Thessalonians 2 says that there will be a power, the clergy, a small group of men, that will become the lords of the church. The man of sin who sits in the temple of God, thinking that he is God, that’s the exaltation of the clergy, of the leaders. Paul calls that a “falling away of the truth.” And that falling away—the Greek word is apostasy. So my brothers and sisters, we need to get back to the model that Christ gave us, not just for our own salvation, but so that we can receive the Latter Rain.

The Latter Rain was given in the New Testament church organization. Those who exercise kingly power will never receive the Latter Rain. Those who support kingly power can pray for the Latter Rain from morning until night, asking God to give you something God said, “Under those conditions, I can never give this gift.” To have a true leader, Jesus says, “Let him who will be great among God’s people, let him be your servant. And he who will be chief, he who wants to be number one, let him be your slave.” That means we go even further down in terms of serving the people. When God finds people who are servants, not looking for what they can get or “How can I ensure my reelection?” How can I advance my career? How can I be number one?” When God can find a people who don’t think that way, those will be the people He can trust with the power of the Latter Rain. They will not abuse the greatest gift for their own personal ambitions, but to serve and to uplift everybody else.

Andrei Bokertov: As I know, the church had to reorganize the structure, and it was in 1888, when Ellen White was alive. Can we compare how it was and how it became after 1888? Is it possible for you to compare the two structures?

Andy Roman: I think you are referring to the calls Sister White made about the need for a reorganization. We need to reorganize; we need to eliminate kingly power. She made these calls in her day. The good, if there was some good fruit that came, that fruit was seen in 1901, when they began to spread around the authority and responsibilities, so that you didn’t have the consolidation of so much authority in a few men. That took place in 1901. Unfortunately, that was rejected in 1903.

Andrei Bokertov: Yes, I’ve been talking about the current situation. But at the same time, it would be good to know about the differences between the structures of the church when it was with Ellen White and when it was without Ellen White.

Andy Roman: Well, we’ll look at 1888 just as a quick example. God desired to pour out the Latter Rain, and in 1888, He sent a special message through Jones and Waggoner. And had the people, had the leadership accepted this as a message from God, she says that by 1893, the world would have been warned, the message would have gone, Christ would have come, and we would have been in the kingdom. Keep in mind that entire books have been written on this subject; we are just going to give a very short summary of what happened.

“An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord’s message through Brethren [E.J.] Waggoner and [A.T.] Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world” (Selected Messages, Book 2, p. 234).

Ellen White makes this assessment of what happened, what went wrong: She says, the light that was to lighten the whole world was resisted by our brethren at the Minneapolis General Conference. And she says that as a result of that, the light that would have finished the work was rejected. If we were following a representative form of church government, that light would have come to the people. Because certain people, certain leaders, would not, for whatever reason, whether it was jealousy or whether it was strife, certain individuals rejected that, and by their rejection, they stopped that from coming to the rest of the church. My brothers and sisters, that’s kingly power. Kingly power is human kingly power. There was a manifestation of kingly power to stop that from happening. So my concern is—and there were examples—Ellen White was trying to get Jones and Wagoner to preach in many of our churches.

In Battle Creek, where the General Conference was, the prophet was trying to get these messengers to preach in the churches. But certain individuals said no, and they would close those avenues for this message to come to the people. Brothers and sisters, I don’t know if—I know God is ready; I don’t know if our brothers and sisters are ready, because I don’t think we have addressed this dilemma. You look at Phillip, one of the deacons. He went in and evangelized, he went in and baptized, he went, because it was the Holy Spirit that took him to do these things. There was no control, no struggle for supremacy, nothing. Unfortunately, we’ve seen some of those same manifestations of control and manipulation; we saw some of that at St. Louis, and that should be an area that we must pray about.

Andrei Bokertov: I have two questions. Would you please give me just short answers to those ones. Was it possible that the church structure of 1888 became the main problem for the spread of the message?

Andy Roman: If it became a hindrance for the work and the message to be communicated to the people, is that the question?

Andrei Bokertov: Yes.

Andy Roman: There’s no question. I think what we’re referring to is called “corporate responsibility.” The consequences of the actions of some men affected the whole body.

Andrei Bokertov: So the structure that the church had exactly in 1888, was it a problem? What was the problem?

Andy Roman: It wasn’t really so much the structure. The big issue was the heart of fallen, sinful human nature. Human nature has always been the problem. And I’ll explain why. There is a lot of debate today over what the best political system is for a nation. It’s a huge discussion. I mean, you can not escape that debate today. Here’s what Ellen White said: “We need both a converted ministry and a converted people” (5T 227). When you have a converted people, they are not going to abuse that, whatever system they may be operating in. And I’m talking about our politics today. You can have the greatest system, the most perfect system, but if you have corrupt people, they will find a way to abuse the system to their advantage. But yes, there is no question that the closer we get to the Biblical model, which is what our founders started in the 1840’s, the closer we get to that biblical model, the faster the work can get finished.

Andrei Bokertov: So, as I understand, the church structure that we have right now was organized after the church refused to accept the message of 1888. So the structure we have right now is maybe even the result, one of the results. Is it possible to have any success with such a structure right now?

 Andy Roman: Well, that’s a question that I think alludes back to what we’re told in the Spirit of Prophecy, where there’s a model church that has been given to us, and it is a model for every church, for every organization for which the work of God can be carried forth. I’ll read the full statement. This is found in Acts of the Apostles, on page 91. She says, “The organization of the church at Jerusalem was to serve as a model for the organization of churches in every other place where the messengers of truth should win converts to the gospel. Those to whom was given the responsibility of the general oversight of the church” Let me pause. That’s talking about General Conference presidents, Union presidents, Division presidents, Conference presidents, and even down to the local pastor. She says, “Those given responsibilities over the oversight of the church, she says, we’re not to lord over God’s heritage. But as wise shepherds, they were to feed the flock, be an example to the flock.” So what we see here is the mindset of what a leader is supposed to be.

Are we following the model that God gave us in His Word, or are we following a model that we see in Babylon? There’s unity in Babylon. Because you have one man at the top, or a small group of men, and whatever they say is the law, and everybody at the bottom has to follow. It’s like the military. It’s like the mafia, and like many churches today. You know, in Matthew 20:20-18, Jesus said to the mother of James and John—the mother came to Jesus and said, “Can my two sons—I want one to sit at Your right and the other at Your left in the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus, set up a hierarchy. You can be at the top, but I want my sons to be at your side in authority.” Did Jesus accept that request? No, absolutely not. He said, “You know how the world is; the ruler, he tells everybody what to do. It shall not be so among you.” That’s a command Jesus gave. That’s not how God’s kingdom is organized, where you have these layers, the layers of organization, but the authority comes from the top down to the bottom. There are layers in God’s church, but the layers go down; they don’t go up; they go down. And it’s the duty of the pastors and the leaders to serve the church.

I understand that we say we have a representative form of church government—it’s in the church manual, it’s in our General Conference working policy; we say that we have the representative form of church government. But, my brothers and sisters, if that were truly the case, I believe that not only the General Conference sessions, but also many of the things that we see in Adventism, would not exist if we had a representative form of church government. We wouldn’t see many of the things that we see today.

Secret ballots—they didn’t have secret ballots in the New Testament church. They were allowed to discuss and to share their concerns. We didn’t see very much of that in St. Louis. They weren’t even allowed to discuss—imagine this. Imagine that you have to vote in an election for a candidate, but you’re not allowed to talk about the candidate. Imagine that. Try to imagine that. Everybody has to vote for somebody, but we can’t talk about the person—we can’t talk about their name, their job, what they’ve done, what they’re doing—none of that’s going on. No, my brothers, that’s not following the New Testament organization. Who made up that rule? Where did it come from? Who voted for that? Who approved that? You can’t talk about “just trusting the system.” If you think about what happened in 1888, the situation is worse today when you consider some of the things that are happening. So we could have the right to—you can have the right equipment, the right structure, but if these decisions are being made not by the people, and when those delegates want to ask questions, they’re not allowed to ask those questions. My brothers and sisters, that’s not representative; that’s kingly power.

Andrei Bokertov: So I do want to come to the question about the electronic voting situation. What is the system about? How does it work? Why can’t we, basically, trust that system? And why didn’t our leaders explain how it works to the people?

Andy Roman: My brothers and sisters, a secret voting system in which you can’t verify who voted or how the delegates voted, is so contrary to a free society. The system that was used in St. Louis would never work in a free election here in America; it would never work, nor would it ever be accepted. There was one delegate who stood up and asked, “How does this voting system work?” This was a secret system where nothing could be verified. The only answer that was given from the parliamentarian who was in charge of making sure that policy and rules were being followed—the only answer that was given was, “Trust.”

You’ve probably seen these elections where the margin of victory is very close. What happens is that they have to do a recount. It happens all the time. But that’s how you do things in a representative form of government. When you truly have representation, you can have a recount. How is it possible to have a recount if necessary? One, because they can verify who voted and how they voted. They go back, and they start counting again. You couldn’t do this at the General Conference Session. And there was only one name to vote for, too. My brothers and sisters, is this Communism? Is this tyranny? Is this totalitarianism?

When the Holy Spirit’s in charge, you don’t have to try to manipulate anything. God is able to work in the lives of His people. And you know, they had a vote in the New Testament. They did have one, in the book of Acts. You remember, there was one of the apostles that committed suicide. So there were only 11. So the 11 got together and they said, “We need to find somebody.” And so the apostles had a vote. They cast lots with two names. It wasn’t a secret process. It wasn’t something hidden or obscure. Jesus said, “In secret I have done nothing.” The church in Revelation 12 is clothed with light. And that light means it’s open; anyone can see. There’s nothing mysterious; there’s nothing secret. Ellen White says in Review and Herald, January 31, 1893: “Scorn the concealment.” In other words, detest secrecy. She says, “Show your colors; let the world know where we stand.” The closer we get to the model that God gave us for the New Testament, the better everyone is, and the sooner God can have a people that He can trust to give them the Latter Rain.

Andrei Bokertov: So one more question: it’s about the last day of the General Conference session. When all the flags of those countries where the church communities already exist were taken out, these flags were placed in front of the stage, and then they took out several flags of those countries where the Adventist Church is not present yet, and doesn’t have congregations. And those flags were put on the stage. Do you think it was right to bring the flag of the Vatican State to the stage?

Andy Roman: The Vatican flag should never have been flown at the most important gathering and conference of Seventh-day Adventists. It should never have been done. Dr. Isaac Olatunji, a professor from one of our universities, gave the best explanation for this flag situation. He basically expressed that flags are important, and flags represent values and principles. And you know, the reason for giving the flags, the reason that they gave, is that this is a nation that we haven’t reached yet with the gospel. But my brothers and sisters, the point that Dr. Isaac Olatunji brought up, he said, “Well, are they going to fly the rainbow flag, with all the colors of the LGBTQ movement—are we going to fly that flag, because we want to reach them?”

And what is the message that we try to send when we fly the Vatican flag—what’s the message? So the excuse was, “Well, we’re trying to reach them, we’re going to convert them, we’re trying to change them with the gospel.” My brothers and sisters, Rome is not going to change. We’re told that Rome is trying to change us. God says, “I gave her space to repent of her fornication, and she repented not” (Revelation 2:21). We’re told, “Rome never changes; it is Protestantism that is changing” (Last Day Events, p. 130). And what we have been seeing in the last 60 years in Adventism, we’ve been seeing a fulfillment of God’s inspiration, what God says is happening.

So the Vatican flag was supposed to represent the nations that we were trying to reach. And here’s an image that comes from the Adventist Review, from 1968. This is the first time that I am aware of, or that at least has been made public, that Adventist leadership has had contact with the pope. And the names of the individuals are listed there on page 16. These are religious liberty leaders and leaders from the division—the division no longer exists. It’s been absorbed into the new division we have today.

What Rome established in the 1960s at Vatican II was the Decree on Ecumenism, and the message is that we are all one. Let’s not focus on the divisions, let’s not focus on doctrine; let’s have a common witness. And the common witness also focuses on a common home. We live in a common home. Let’s save the environment because of the common home. This common witness and common home have been instrumental in bringing the entire world to a common day of rest.

Now here is one of the prominent promoters of Vatican II, and that is Robert Runcie with Pope John Paul II. Vatican II established ecumenism and made the call to bring them back home and bring the churches back together. We can spend an hour talking about Robert Runcie. He is a former head of the Anglican church and the former Archbishop of Canterbury.

And now watch this: Here is Robert Runcie with the former Adventist president, Niel Wilson, and with Bert Beverly Beach, former religious liberty and interchurch relations leader, the two Adventist leaders. Vatican II has nothing to do with trying to share the gospel with others. Vatican II has to do with what Pope Francis decreed in his papal encyclical, Fratelli Tutti—one universal brotherhood of man; that’s what they’re creating.

Now, notice this next image. There’s Bert Beverly Beach again, from the Religious Liberty Department of the Adventist Church. And here you see he has a name tag. On his first visit, he needed the pope to know who he was.

Now here’s this one. On the next visit, the pope knows who we are. He didn’t need a nametag; he knew who we were. Now look at the hands. In Great Controversy, Ellen White states that Protestantism will reach across the gulf to clasp the hands of Romanism. It’s a fulfillment—they’re grasping the hands of Rome. On several occasions, he did this. We’re trying to share the gospel?

Brothers and sisters, they know what we believe more than we know what we believe. Rome can articulate our faith better than we can do it. But they’re not doing it to spread our faith; they’re doing it to see how they can exploit us so that the principles of the papacy can be revived once more .The objective is to silence the witness and the voice of the third angel’s message.

And here we go, grasping the hands of Rome as described in Great Controversy. And it’s not just one hand, my brothers and sisters, it’s a double-handed grasp. And obviously, this is the current leader of religious liberty in public relations, Ganoune Diop. He was reelected once again in St. Louis, which means that nothing is going to change.

My brothers and sisters, our message is not to just keep the seventh-day Sabbath. Our message is to encourage everyone to keep the seventh-day Sabbath. Our message is not just to come out of Babylon. Our message is to call everyone to come out of Babylon. That’s the Latter Rain message. You want the Latter Rain? Are you praying for the Latter Rain? Then you better preach Revelation 18—that’s the Latter Rain. Come out of her, my people! But that’s not what they’re doing. They’re not coming out, they’re going in. That’s the message of Vatican II. So, my brothers and sisters, we have to come to the realization that God is calling us to do more than just speak the message within the four walls of our local church. This message has to go to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, which includes Rome, which the Vatican flag represents. This message has to be given there too. And I’m afraid, from what we see, it’s not happening.

Andrei Bokertov: Brother, how about Ganoune Diop? Yes, we understand that he was reelected, but why would he go to the Vatican? This is so awful! Is he going there to get some instructions or what?

Andy Roman: Most of what we know about Ganoune Diop comes from non-Adventist sources. They’re coming from sources that are either from the World Council of Churches, from the Vatican, or from Christian organizations. And he is the face of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. He represents the church at all these events. He’s not just an observer. You know, we say, “Well, we go to observe.” He’s an active participant; he’s an organizer; and sometimes he chairs these ecumenical meetings/gatherings. And he sits alongside members of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. That’s the Vatican’s arm to bring the churches back to Rome. So, yes, there is evangelism going on. We’re the ones who are being evangelized. After sixty years of meeting with the Vatican, meeting with the pope, who is changing? Are they changing? Have they changed? Will they change? No, my brothers, open your eyes. We’re the ones who are changing. And the third angel’s message is diminishing, unfortunately, more and more in our public witness.

Andrei Bokertov: Brother Andy, I would like to say amen to almost every word you’ve said. So I have another question. Let’s imagine that tomorrow the Sunday Law comes out. What do you think the leaders of the denomination will do?

Andy Roman: We know exactly what is going to happen, not because I have a suspicion or I imagine, but because inspiration has told us what is going to happen. Notice what it says in Review and Herald, March 18, 1884. She says, “The Lord has a controversy with His people. In this controversy, men in responsible positions will take a course directly opposite to that pursued by Nehemiah.” Nehemiah—now let me pause—Nehemiah brought Sabbath reforms. Nehemiah stopped the mingling, ecumenism, with the daughters of Moab and all the daughters of the Canaanites; he stopped all that. Who’s going to stop this today? Ellen White says that the leaders are going to take a position contrary to Nehemiah. Now let me keep reading. It says, “They will not only ignore and despise the Sabbath themselves [they ignore the Sabbath at these ecumenical functions], but they will try to keep it from others, burying it beneath customs and traditions. In churches and large gatherings, ministers will urge upon the people the necessity of keeping the first day of the week.” She’s talking about our ministers and our people.

Now, how can that happen? How is it possible? Great Controversy, 608. I want you to see how ecumenism has much to do with the question you asked. She says, “As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel’s message.” What kind of a class? A small minority? No, my brothers, a large class. What’s going to happen? She says they “will abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition.” How does this happen? I will keep reading: “By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit [that’s ecumenism], they come to view matters in nearly the same light. And when the test comes, they choose the easy, popular side.” [2:02:11] What do they do? By uniting with them, they start to think the same: common home, common witness, and very soon, what’s next, a common day of worship.

Andrei Bokertov: Thank you, brother, I believe that answer was good. I have two more questions. Is the Adventist church as a denomination under the control of the United States government today? Do we, as a denomination, have freedom from the demands of the United States government system?

Andy Roman: That’s a tough question, but it is a most appropriate and necessary question that we have to pray about. There’s a saying in our country that says, “You don’t bite the hand that feeds you.” Maybe they say it in your country too. I don’t know. What is unfortunately and tragically happening is that our federal government is literally supporting our churches financially. Do we not see a major problem with this? The church is to be married to Christ, not the state. Does the church have a husband? Does the church not have a defender and a supporter? Or does a church have a husband, Christ, that does not supply all her needs? Then we have to go to another, a third person, you see. In marriage, when there’s two, it’s holy. But when you get three, it’s defiled. And when our US government begins to subsidize the payroll and put money in the pockets of our pastors, are you going to imagine that this is not a major conflict of interest?

What happened once our schools began taking government money? Certain conditions, my brothers and sisters, were attached to how that money could be spent. The government said it was only for secular work and secular purposes. What do you mean, secular? We’re a spiritual church. This is leading to the secularization of the church. So don’t imagine that taking hundreds of millions of dollars for our health care institutions and then giving more millions to our schools through grants, and then during the pandemic, you know, the church received PPP, Payment Protection Program, where the state put federal money into the pockets of our pastors. There was no protest. Everybody was okay.

And maybe, maybe it’s all this money that is keeping our lips quiet, so that we don’t say anything about anything on the moral issues; on the law of God, we don’t say anything. Maybe that’s what the money is supposed to be all about. Close the churches. During the pandemic, the state told us to close the churches. Stop the missions. Don’t come out of your closet; stay home. But the bars and the abortion clinics and the marijuana dispensaries, we can keep those open. Those are essential for the pandemic. But the churches, no; the churches are not essential. That occurred in this country. We sided with tyranny, not with freedom. Maybe the money, my brothers and sisters, maybe the money affects the decisions that we make about not biting the hand that is feeding us.

Andrei Bokertov: The last question for today: Was there any hint of the desire for the denomination to come to repentance during this session in St. Louis?

Andy Roman: There was a lot of talk about missions, like I said, which is good and necessary. A lot of praying, a lot of talking, and a lot of preaching about the Latter Rain. But it is heartbreaking that not one word about addressing some of these issues that we’ve been talking about, which are obstacles that are preventing us from receiving the Latter Rain. No talk about these matters. We have to take the everlasting gospel, Revelation 14:6-12, to the world. That message has to go to everyone. But what are we going to do, my brothers and sisters, about the ecumenical gospel? What are we going to do about the rainbow gospel? What are we going to do with the feminist gospel? What are we going to do about the green, climate-change gospel and the social justice gospel and every other gospel that has made itself comfortable in our churches—what are we going to do about those gospels? Those things are causing our truth to be stolen, robbed, and lost from our people.

The good news is—and I will close with some wonderful news—the good news is that there are some faithful Seventh-day Adventists, and I had the privilege of meeting with them, who believe that no, we have to stay with the straight testimony of the True Witness, and we don’t need these alliances with these international organizations to carry the gospel, and who believe this—let me read this to you, Volume 5 of the Testimonies. “The power which stirred the people so mightily in 1844 will again be revealed.” We praise the Lord for that. That’s Volume 5 of the Testimonies, page 252. She says, “The third angel’s message will go forth with a loud voice.” The Latter Rain will come. And you and I have an opportunity to have a part in that fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

It is our Christian duty to encourage one another, to encourage our brethren and sisters, yes, even to encourage those who are in positions of leadership, to encourage them in the way of the Lord, so that we can participate and not miss out on the outpouring of the Latter Rain. Those who meet the conditions and the requirements that God established for receiving the Latter Rain, soon, very soon, they will receive it, and they will finish this work with tremendous divine power. Those who fail to measure up will not receive the refreshing of the Holy Spirit. They will not receive the seal of God in their forehead and be protected during the plagues. They will not be ready for Jesus to come because they will not partake in the Loud Cry. And sadly, tragically, they will know that they are forever lost when they don’t receive that gift. My brothers and sisters, let that not be our experience. Let’s do everything we can today to be ready. God bless you all. Thank you.

Andrei Bokertov: Thank you, Brother Andy. I have received a lot of very good and profitable information. I believe that thousands of people will listen to this conversation. And I hope, I believe, that those people will understand the situation in our church and the stages which they have to take. I’m thankful to the Lord for the possibility of getting to know you, Brother. I see that you are not just a person who is very well informed, but you are someone who loves God. And I hope we can have several more meetings to discuss other issues the church has. I also know that you have a website called Advent Messenger. And I might have some articles for you. The information which describes what is happening on our territory.

Andy Roman: We will be happy to continue to share, and I look forward to speaking with you more. And let’s keep each other in prayer. Let’s keep our brothers and sisters in prayer. We all want to make it to the kingdom. We don’t want anybody left behind. We want to do all we can to save, restore, and redeem so that we can continue to share—not just in this world, but in God’s kingdom. So thank you very much.

Andrei Bokertov: Brother Andy, can you close with a word of prayer?

Andy Roman: Sure, let us pray. Thank You, Lord, for your love. We thank you, Lord, for your Sabbath Day. Lord, we look forward to the day when You return and we get to spend the Sabbath with You for the rest of eternity. Be with our brothers and sisters on that side of the world. Bless them and encourage them, those who are suffering and going through hardships. Let them know, Lord, that You are by their side, and that You have not forgotten them. Also, Lord, be with us here and those throughout the rest of the world. You have Your faithful people. You have 7,000, Lord, who will never bow their knee to Baal. We pray for them as well. And when You come in glory, Lord, may we all be together, ready to be received of Thee in the clouds of heaven. That is our prayer. Keep us faithful, both in life and in death if necessary. And we ask these things in Jesus’ name. Amen.

Andrei Bokertov: Amen.