On August 26, 2024, we reported that Dr. Conrad Vine had been canceled by Pastor Stephen Bohr from speaking at his event. That was 100% true. We also reported that Conrad Vine’s cancellation was over his remarks at the Maine camp meeting. That was also 100% true. We reported that Pastor Bohr had contacted Dr. Vine earlier this week to cancel him personally; that too was 100% true. And thanks to Saved to Serve and others who amplified these recent events, the news has gone all over the world, prompting Pastor Stephen Bohr to respond.
In his response, Pastor Bohr said that a lot of “rumors” have been spreading and that the cancellation of Dr. Vine’s invitation to speak at his summit “had nothing” to do with the Covid vaccine or how the church dealt with the pandemic. [1] Rather, Pastor Bohr said that Dr. Vine was canceled because he stated at the Maine Camp Meeting that the time might come for lay conferences to be established where tithe could be allocated to finish the work. [1]
Covid Is Not The Issue?
Let me first address the Covid issue and then we will address the others. In Pastor Stephen Bohr’s response, he said that Covid was not the reason for canceling Dr. Vine. How can Covid not be the issue if the very essence of Dr. Vine’s message in Maine was to convey the leadership’s mishandling of the Covid crisis? Pastor Bohr may argue that Covid wasn’t related, just as the church has argued that Covid isn’t a religious liberty issue, but the truth is that Dr. Vine’s message in Maine highlighted how the church’s position on Covid created a religious liberty crisis in Adventism, resulting in many members being denied exemptions and losing their jobs. All of these points are interrelated and at the core of Dr. Vine’s message.
In fact, had the leadership not failed in their handling of Covid, Pastor Vine would not have preached the sermon he gave in Maine, which untimely led to his cancellation. So how does Pastor Bohr separate Covid from Dr. Vine’s message? You can’t. Lastly, why would Pastor Bohr want to isolate and concentrate on Dr. Vine’s suggestions and solutions when they are directly tied to the Covid crisis and freedom of conscience—the two most important aspects of Vine’s message?
During the COVID-19 pandemic, some of the most oppressive restrictions were imposed on individuals and communities. If you watched Dr. Vine’s message, that crisis also brought suffering, misery, and even death upon Seventh-day Adventists, and our top leaders were complicit. Unfortunately, a large percentage of our members—possibly even the majority—do not comprehend this, do not wish to comprehend it, and will never see the catastrophic failure that occurred when the leadership failed to stand up for religious liberty during this crisis. So yes, I can see why some don’t want to recognize that Covid is the issue.
Tithes and Lay Conferences
The remarks made by Dr. Conrad Vine regarding lay conferences and tithes are being taken out of context. This results in misrepresentation and distorts the intended meaning. Pastor Vine was obviously referring to a period of persecution in the future, during the Mark of the Beast crisis, if you actually paid attention to what he said and the context in which he said it. Pastor Vine expressed that when the state cancels the legal status of Adventists, all of God’s faithful people who haven’t received the mark of the beast will be working in an “underground network of lay house churches” because the laws of the land will be against us.
Here is what Pastor Conrad Vine stated in his own words at the Maine camp meeting:
• “Faithful and convicted Adventists will one day establish, when the mark of the beast is imposed, an underground network of lay house churches. That’s what we’re going to be before Jesus comes again.”
• “What’s coming upon our church is that we’re going to have to make a choice each and every one of us. The church, when we talk about the church, we often mean the legal hierarchy like the Northern New England Conference, the Atlantic Union, North America Division, the General Conference. When we talk about the church as members that’s often what we mean. But the truth of the matter is, if the government of Maine were to cancel the registration, the legal registration of the Northern New England conference, does that mean the Adventist Church would cease to exist in Maine, yes or no? Absolutely not. It means simply a functional unit where we return our tithes and offerings to support pastors and educators, so forth, that no longer exists, but the body of Christ still exists. It simply becomes an underground Church which means it has no legal presence.”
There is little doubt that those who remain faithful will have their support cut off when keeping the seventh-day Sabbath is outlawed. Ellen White clearly states that “the laws of the land will soon be against us” (5T 236) and that there will be “great suffering to those who observe the seventh day” (2SM 375). She tells us that we will still have to preach God’s word during persecution because “were it not for persecution, they would not be so widely scattered abroad to proclaim the truth” (6T 478).
Persecuted underground churches will operate under the power of the Latter Rain because Sister White clearly warns that “under the showers of the latter rain the inventions of man, the human machinery, will at times be swept away, the boundary of man’s authority will be as broken reeds” (2SM 58).
During this time “the majority” will “forsake us” (5T 136) and “a great proportion of those who are supposed to be genuine will give heed to seducing spirits, and will turn traitors and betray sacred trusts. They will prove our very worst persecutors” (6BC 1065).
She tells us that a great shaking will take place and “whole conferences” will be “leavened” (TM 272) and “the Lord” will “overturn” his “institutions” (TM 273). Some will remain faithful, but she said that “from what was shown me, but a small number of those now professing to believe the truth would eventually be saved” (2T 445).
During the Sunday law crisis, God’s faithful people will not have the comfortable facilities, institutions, and financial backing that we take for granted today. They will be gathering in private homes or remote locations, and many of their meetings will be small to minimize risk. This was the context in which Pastor Vine spoke those words, and he was trying to mentally and spiritually prepare our people for the times that are right upon us when the vast majority of our brothers and sisters and leaders will renounce the faith and join the opposition, and only a small, faithful people will have a part in the closing work. And, yes, that faithful and holy work will indeed be funded with self-denying efforts during the times of persecution.
“When the storm of persecution really breaks upon us, the true sheep will hear the true Shepherd’s voice. Self-denying efforts will be put forth to save the lost, and many who have strayed from the fold will come back to follow the great Shepherd. The people of God will draw together and present to the enemy a united front. In view of the common peril, strife for supremacy will cease; there will be no disputing as to who shall be accounted greatest” (6T 401).
Misinterpreting statements by taking words out of context is problematic. Context is crucial for accurately understanding and interpreting statements; without it, the intended meaning is lost. When you look at the full context of Pastor Vine’s message, he hasn’t said anything that would merit cancellation. We’ve included a link to Pastor Bohr’s YouTube response below. Based on my observations from the comments, it doesn’t seem like the video is accomplishing what Pastor Bohr is aiming for.
Sources
[1] https://youtu.be/8A4nHbIpZL0?si=htZqx70dkCAkJ9gm
0
0
0
I applaud Dr Conrad Vine’s courage in addressing our denomination’s ill-judged respone to the “plandemic” and in calling our leaders to repent for what they did. These men need eye salve that they may see more clearly the wiles of the devil instead of hastily partnering with him to damage to the name of God and the body of Christ!
God will arouse His people; if other means fail, heresies will come in among them, which will sift them, separating the chaff from the wheat. The Lord calls upon all who believe His word to awake out of sleep. Precious light has come, appropriate for this time. It is Bible truth, showing the perils that are right upon us. This light should lead us to a diligent study of the Scriptures and a most critical examination of the positions which we hold. God would have all the bearings and positions of truth thoroughly and perseveringly searched, with prayer and fasting. Believers are not to rest in suppositions and ill-defined ideas of what constitutes truth. Their faith must be firmly founded upon the word of God so that when the testing time shall come and they are brought before councils to answer for their faith they may be able to give a reason for the hope that is in them, with meekness and fear. 5T 707.3
Agitate, agitate, agitate. The subjects which we present to the world must be to us a living reality. It is important that in defending the doctrines which we consider fundamental articles of faith we should never allow ourselves to employ arguments that are not wholly sound. These may avail to silence an opposer, but they do not honor the truth. 5T 708.1
“Never was there greater need of faithful warnings and reproofs … than at this very time. Satan has come down with great power, knowing that his time is short. He is flooding the world with pleasing fables, and the people of God love to have smooth things spoken to them…. I was shown that God’s people must make more firm, determined efforts to press back the incoming darkness. The close work of the Spirit of God is needed now as never before.” 5T 676.3
I am disappointed to hear the justification of Pr Steven Bohr for canceling Dr Vine particularly as he too has been canceled by others for holding views which they consider to be divisive!
It seems to me that Pr Bohr has not accepted the possibility that Holy Spirit that may be using Pr Vine to deal with these matters just as He used John the Baptist as a voice crying in the wilderness to prepare his church for the coming of the Lord!
The idea that the conferences “that go woke should go broke” seems to me to be in harmony with principles that are set forth in both the Bible and the writings of Ellen White.
In the parable of the talents we find a good example of this principle.
The servant that did not make wise use of the resources entrusted to him had it taken from him and given to one that did.
I also find it interesting that what seems to have gotten us into this mess in the first place was money and that this is also at the root of the current controversy!
The church appears to have complied with the state over the plandemic to sustain it’s financial support from them. And they even accepted furlough monies (UK equivalent of the CARES – Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security) from governments to support the work of ministry yet the principle of tithing that has been sold to us is that it should be the only means by which ministers can be financially supported!
Now the desire to maintain the tithe income coming into the conferences at any cost is what is at the heart of the latest controversy. Notice that Bohr’s contention is not with Vine’s well known position on and repudiation of the denomination’s plandemic response but with Vine’s suggestion of a redirection of the tithe to support conferences that are actually doing what it is intended to support!
We need to re-study the tithe issue as it seems to me that for many of us our understanding and practice of tithing is not in harmony with Biblical principles and intent.
The financial support of the gospel ministry (and it is questionable whether this support was ever monetary in the Biblical tithing system) was never intended to support the office of the minister but rather the work of ministry. In other words only those that are actually “minister about holy things” should benefit from it!
1 Cor 9:9 – For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
1 Cor 9:13-14 – Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
Those that claim to “minister about holy things” by virtue of their appointment but are not actually doing so should be defunded and cast out as “wicked and slothful” servants! And the resources that they would have received redirected to those that are doing God’s bidding.
Mat 25:26-29 – His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Sis White also has statements that seem in essence to be saying the say thing:-
“So often the same old difficulties arise and are presented in regard to disturbing the “regular lines.” But God will work in some way to make His people understand that the regular lines have become full of irregular practices.
… I want my brethren to begin to understand some things for themselves. God alone, by the quickening, vivifying influence of His Holy Spirit, can enable men to distinguish between the sacred and the common. God alone can make men understand that working on regular lines has led to irregular practices. God alone can make men’s minds as they should be. The time has come when we should hear less in favor of the regular lines. If we can get away from the regular lines into something which, though irregular, is after God’s order, it may cut away something of the irregular working which has led away from Bible principles.” 16LtMs, Lt 65, 1901, par. 15 – 16LtMs, Lt 65, 1901, par. 17
And when she uses the words “regular lines” in this way she is commenting on the practice of tithing through our conferences.
If the work in this field had in the past been recognized by the General Conference, if the help had been given that the importance of the field demands, there would be some reason why the work should be carried in the regular lines. But in many parts of the South the regular lines cannot now be followed. Every dollar of the tithe raised in the South should be used in the South, and besides this, additional help will be needed. The past showing of the General Conference with regard to the Southern field is a very poor one. The work has been hindered in such a way that God has been greatly dishonored. The strange neglect of the Southern field is a startling rebuke to those who bear the name of Seventh-day Adventist. 16LtMs, Lt 59, 1901, par. 2
Therefore “irregular lines” must speak of financing the gospel work through tithing other than through our conferences and in other quotes (as th one above) she says that a time will become necessary for this to happen!
“The tithe should go to those who labor in word and doctrine, be they men or women.”—Manuscript 149, 1899. Ev 492.2
“It would be poor policy to support from the treasury of God those who really mar and injure His work, and who are constantly lowering the standard of Christianity.” 3T 553.2
Reply
So he who was cancelled in the potomac conf uses the same tactics against Dr. Vine. Unbelievable-
Bohr is in the Pacific Conference. (I think South PC)
When a poster uses the word “plandemic” in their post, I immediately stop reading knowing that there is nothing worth reading in said post.
Sorry you feel that way. There is truth to his word choice. If you look at what was said in January 2017 by a certain retired head of NIH, this person predicted a pandemic before 2020. So the use of plandemic us perfectly appropriate. How else would you predict something if you aren’t in the know? And… in 2019, they ran this big pandemic computer simulation. All this can be found on Google or DuckDuckGo.
They are running another plandemic one Oct 2-3 in LA.
I believe Smallpox.
But they have
1) new covid strain
2) Mpox
3) Avian Flu
4) Polio
5) Easter Equine
More on the horizon
It was nothing other than a pandemic. If you think otherwise, you have either not seen the mountains of evidence proving that it was or you choose to ignore it.
Exactly!
Conrad vine is a CONSPIRACY THEORIST . He is so deeply steeped in you tube conspiracies he preaches it from the pulpit to unsuspecting GULLIBLE ADVENTIST.
Too many Adventist are believing the COVID vaccine is some terrible thing because that is what disinformation is telling them online. Then to have a pastor repeat that is only further destructive.
So this what the SDA church has come to. Cancelling/censoring people who don’t share the opinion of the church hierarchy.
I personally am appalled that what was utmost in the mind of this conference was the possible revenue and not the call for the North American Conference to be responsive to those who lost jobs, homes and suffered serious complications from the vaccine. That many of out hospitals take funding from the government and our churches bowed to government not supporting personal conscience is the heart of this. The focus should of been on those damaged first and foremost…but it was not. This I see as a gracious error on the part of leadership.
There was a time when I would have thought Bohr would have made a good Conference President, I was mistaken, something Our GC leaders need to learn how to say,
As Pastor Bohr recently understood what it feels like to be cancelled at an event at a pre-booked engagement,
One could have been mistaken for thinking He might have sympathized with Vine’s situation,
Firmly believe God is going to arrange for these things to continually happen until The GC leaders repent. (Revelation 3:19)
Let me first address the Covid issue and then we will address the others. In Pastor Stephen Bohr’s response, he said that Covid was not the reason for canceling Dr. Vine. How can Covid not be the issue if the very essence of Dr. Vine’s message in Maine was to convey the leadership’s mishandling of the Covid crisis? Pastor Bohr may argue that Covid wasn’t related, just as the church has argued that Covid isn’t a religious liberty issue, but the truth is that Dr. Vine’s message in Maine highlighted how the church’s position on Covid created a religious liberty crisis in Adventism, resulting in many members being denied exemptions and losing their jobs. All of these points are interrelated and at the core of Dr. Vine’s message.
exactly. great point that on one has pointed out yet.
Because the spirit at work showed itself in his manner and the fruit it produced. I agree and did not vaccinate…but this spirit in this movement is NOT Christ’s.
Will the moderator here allow comments that don’t agree with this narrative? Doubtful
We are living in a time when the shaking in our church will lead to a great division. The foundations of that division are being laidout right now before our very eyes. We must stay very close to the Word or we are in danger of being deceived. It is the only way we can know who is telling the truth about what. In these last days we will have to contend with false Christs and false teachers. Their messages may sound oh so good because it pleases itchy ears. Ask God to guide you and be prepared to obey. Hold fast to your faith, study aHis Word and hang on!
.
.
. Dr. Conrad Vine stands for the true and that’s the reason way the enemy wants to get rid of this servant .
. May the lord will guide him & bless his role !!!
Let’s stop the infighting. BOTH men bring something that is needed to the Present Truth Table.
BOTH men and the messages they present are needed by the Church today.
WHATEVER IS GOING ON BETWEEN BROTHERS VINE AND BOHR—LET IT BE AND REST.
It seems that in the comments there is bashing of one side or the other.
Peter & Paul got into it—-but BOTH men were still needed and used for the advancement of the Kingdom.
Amen! I’m saddened by the comments from people about this issue. It’s not about taking sides. Both men are of God and disagree about a subject which doesn’t change our message the gospel! We can still support both even if we disagree with one or both!
Truth.
There is a large difference between Vine and Bohr , Vine is for religious liberty and Bohr is for tyranny over the vaccine mandates. Don’t sit on the fence! Let your nay be nay and your yeh be yeh,” If God abhors one sin above another, of which His people are guilty, it is doing nothing in case of an emergency. Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God. 3T page 280.
Since the true Head of this church is Christ Himself, His honor and vindication are involved. Let’s not give up hope; He knows a way to bring healing and unity to His body.
“Let us have faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port.
I had an impressive dream last night. I thought that you were on strong vessel, sailing on very rough waters. Sometimes the waves beat over the top, and you were drenched with water. You said,”I shall get off; this vessel is going down.”
“No,” said one who appeared to be the captain,” this vessel sails into the harbor. She will never go down.”
The church may appear as about to fall, BUT IT DOES NOT FALL. lt remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out-the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.
I am instructed to say to Seventh-day Adventists the world over, God has called us as a people to be a peculiar treasure unto Himself. He has appointed that His church on earth shall stand perfectly united in the Spirit and counsel of the Lord of hosts to the end of time.”
Testimonies Vol 9 pg 19
Saved To Serve is a ministry that is a horrible representation of Christ’s love. One only need to study the 1888 Message and understand what shook and nearly collapsed the church then to see what satan is doing now.
It is a sad day to see this finger pointing instead of pointing us to JESUS the only one who can change a heart and bring us to repentance.
Pastor Vine no longer has my support, as he does not realize the spirit that is leading to self righteousness just as is seen in Saved To Serve.
Don’t see anything wrong with Vine’s position. The church took the wrong position not Conrad Vine. Will never forget the sense of betrayal I felt learning the church was pushing the vaccine mandate and refusing to help those members who did not want the jab. The vaccine turned out to be a total disaster causing millions of deaths globally. Those who didn’t take the vaccine fared much better than those who did. Was a shock to learn the church refused to help members obtain religious exemptions. We all know now the church received millions of dollars in government funds which was the reason for its betrayal of their own faithful members. What wisdom had the church stood solidly behind members who chose to exercise their constitutional right to autonomy over their own bodies.
Amen Brother
Brick and mortar will always be subjective to the temptations of the support of monetary institutions including government to which they will fall victim to their demands. The love of money is the root of all evil . I’m so glad gods last day church does not consist of brick and mortar but flesh and blood borne of our Heavenly Father above led by his spirit and truth .this is the church triumphant through Christ our righteousness.praying for all involved for god’s will
First off, I would assume that most Adventist lay members reading this article appreciate greatly the contributions of both men to the life and vitality of the church.
As the main thrust of Pastor Vine’s views as expressed here have their roots in his 2022 sermon, “An Appeal to the Adventist Nobility”, Pastor Bohr would already have been familiar with the general direction of Pastor Vine’s thinking on these issues when he invited him to speak last year for the 2024 conference here in question—meaning we have every reason to take Pastor Bohr at his word that his cancelling of Dr. Vine’s appearance (which, by the way, is very different from “cancelling him” in the modern political sense) was not in any way related to Pastor’ Vine’s views on the church’s handling of the politics surrounding the Covid vaccine as such.
Rather, Pastor Bohr’s concern, as stated in his recorded statement, was that of Dr. Vine legitimizing and defending the potential need for a separate church organization outside of the current Adventist Church structure—the authority of which Pastor Bohr has always gone out of his way to affirm and uphold in spite of his continued acknowledgement of the widespread apostasy present within many of the North American Adventist congregations. Indeed, this has been one of the hallmarks of Pastor Bohr’s ministry: namely, that of seeking to preserve the unity of the church’s structure while at the same time faithfully pointing out its flaws.
If we listen carefully once more to Pastor Vine’s remarks at the 57:35 mark https://youtu.be/Z8TEwQ4717Q?si=8RTCYEySSUh428u_ , he himself openly acknowledges that he suspects his remarks may cross the line for some, in that they move beyond merely calling the church’s GC leadership to account to a point of defending and even legitimizing a potential split from the organization at some point in the near or immediate future. This, indeed, was a novel move on the part of Dr. Vine, and in light of this fact it’s entirely understandable and consistent for Pastor Bohr to have reacted the way he did, given the great pains he has always taken to honor the church’s divinely-ordained authority and structure.
Nor were Pastor Vine’s remarks made in relation to the mark of the beast crisis. If you listen carefully, he explicitly states that such a split could come about in the event that “the GC supports future [vaccine] mandates over the consciences of members”, which would thus clearly precede any potential Sunday [mark of the beast] legislation in the United States. As understandable as the impulse was and is on the part of Pastor Vine to protect and defend those seeking to remain faithful to conscience in the face of illegal and unjust mandates, and the shameful refusal of the GC church leadership to acknowledge its error in issuing its unauthorized 2021 GC ADCOM Reaffirmation statement, it does nevertheless appear that he may have jumped the gun in calling for a potential “para-church movement within Adventism”, and that Pastor Bohr was right to rescind his invitation on this very account.
It would be great if both men could meet together to hash out what exactly went wrong here, and for the erring party (whoever that may be) to acknowledge publicly his error and retract his statement so that all can move forward in one accord.
Thank you for your unimpassioned comment
Totally agree with this comment, states facts in the correct light, unmingled with passion
If there is disagreement about Vine’s comments, then there is a huge problem within the church. Vine did not say any thing wrong. To cancel him from anything shows ignorance and pride.
The time has come for a reformation and as in the past the reformation began with one man’s nailed thesis. I think Dr Vine eloquently articulated and nailed his thesis quite profoundly in his message. He did what many dare to do.
Dr Vine very well knows truth has a cost as he alluded in his message but as we can see like Luther his conscious is captive to the word of God. Like a responsible leader he pointed out flaws and with that a solutions in the event of a re-occurrence. This to me is responsible leadership.
The gift of God in Jesus Christ should awaken in the heart of every believer a spirit of self-sacrifice, leading them to deny themselves anything that will further the cause of God in the earth. {Ms 83, 1909, par 14
The greatest want of the world is the want of men,—men who will not be bought or sold; men who in their inmost souls are true and honest; men who do not fear to call sin by its right name; men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole; men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.—Education, 57 (1903). {CM 54.4}. 14}
Praise God for Dr Conrad Vine. Let’s pray for him all all the leaders as well as the church.
I would like to continue my previous comment by saying; the more I look at this situation, the more I see how history repeats itself. Dr Conrad Vine has found himself in a similar situation as the Reformer John Wycliffe spoken about in the following GC reference:
“Like after Reformers, Wycliffe did not, at the opening of his work, foresee whither it would lead him. He did not set himself deliberately in opposition to Rome. But devotion to truth could not but bring him in conflict with falsehood. The more clearly he discerned the errors of the papacy, the more earnestly he presented the teaching of the Bible. He saw that Rome had forsaken the word of God for human tradition; he fearlessly accused the priesthood of having banished the Scriptures, and demanded that the Bible be restored to the people and that its authority be again established in the church. He was an able and earnest teacher and an eloquent preacher, and his daily life was a demonstration of the truths he preached. His knowledge of the Scriptures, the force of his reasoning, the purity of his life, and his unbending courage and integrity won for him general esteem and confidence. Many of the people had become dissatisfied with their former faith as they saw the iniquity that prevailed in the Roman Church, and they hailed with unconcealed joy the truths brought to view by Wycliffe; but the papal leaders were filled with rage when they perceived that this Reformer was gaining an influence greater than their own.” {GC 81.2}. Considering this I say to him. Take courage my brother, Be strong.
Deuteronomy 31:6
“Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.”
I find it interesting that by doing what they are doing, the Michigan conference, the NNEC and certainly all those who have opposed and cancelled Dr Vine based on what he said, are actually proving him and the Spirit of Prophecy that he quoted, right. They have now exacerbated the divide that was caused by the fake pandemic and as Dr Vine stated, the church will indeed split. And yet they do not see that their action is fulfilling prophecy.
The shaking has begun, we cant stop it, it will intensify when the next mandate comes. Be prepared, get off the grid. Pr Vine could not stop what was done, even if he wanted to. He said he prayed and agonized about it. Nothing to fear though, the bible declares ” At that time Michaël the great prince will stand up for thy people” Just chill and watch God work things out.
To say I am stunned by the response of Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) church hierarchy leadership to Ps Conrad Vine’s message, is an understatement. I am shocked. Why? Has any of those leaders ever read Gamaliel’s advice in Acts 5:38 – which says- ‘And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
What scares me most with the current response from the church hierarchy is this: What if this message from God? What if it is a prediction of what lies ahead? I have lived through a church in Kenya where a faction broke out from the biggest church in the East African country due to accusations of mismanagement of funds and nepotism, and subsequently one faction formed their own churches and the hierarchy that goes with it. Let me tell you – the results stink. From that experience, I have to say Ps Vine’s predictions are worthy of a relook but from a different angle.
So, what if, instead of the church hierarchy behaving like the leaders of Israelites of old did to prophet Jeremiah, when he brought the news of the pending captivity to Babylon, what if we all fall on our knees and ‘weep between the porch and the altar’ (Joel 2:17)? Can we learn from the experience of the leaders of Israel in Jeremiah’s day that beating a messenger and even throwing him in the gooey etc, did not solve the existing root problem. Leaders and the people in general, did not change their behaviors nor did that avert the captivity. If the high handedness and corruption in the hierarchy of the church starting from the general conference (GC), church hierarchy, individual churches, and to us individual laity is not solved – a crisis is coming. We can kick the messengers, scream at them, throw gooey at them – but our fate is the same as the Israelites of old. Please let’s all humble ourselves and take heed of Joel 2:17- ‘Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O Lord, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?’
There is one way to God the Door Jesus there are two ditches. One says, demand force coerce the church into doing as you believe is right. The other says create a liaison between church and state that is expected to achieve continual religious freedom for its members. This leads to the church acting as conscience for the believers but in the compromised position of having to play out the differences of church and state to the satisfaction of both. People fell and still fall for this. If people do right and suffer its because we’re in a world of sin and no justice or perfect system will arise in this life. May we not follow each other but Jesus even so come lord Jesus
I was disappointed with Pastor Bohr’s statement regarding the C-19 innocations and about Pastor Vine’s sermon. Pastor Bohr had to go outside of the Spirit of Prophecy to a memo written by one of Sister White’s secretaries stating that she took the smallpox vaccine. Sister White wrote 100K pages of content but never mentioned vaccines pro or con. For Pastor Bohr to claim that Sister White endorsed vaccines because she allegedly took the smallpox vaccine was disingenuous. The same Pastor Bohr who went outside of the Spirit of Prophecy to find a memo written by one of Sister White sectararies to bost his support for the Reaffirmation statement failed to quote content she wrote on the tithe. Sister White accepted tithe from disgrunntled church members and redirected it to where it was most needed. Neither the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy support the GC’s claim that the Conference is the sole storehouse for the tithe. Pastor Bohr supports the GC position on tithe although it is not in accorance with the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy. I support Pastor Vine 100%.
It’s hard to even know where to begin. Those who opposed the vaccine for the most part didn’t have to see or care for those dying of Covid 19 which did kill millions of people. That intelligent people charged with your protection saw the virulence of the disease and were able to predict the damage that it would do early in the course of the pandemic does not mean they planned it or were in any way responsible for it. The vaccines, and there were multiple different brands and types, were effective in preventing death and controlling the spread of the disease is proven in multiple studies from dozens of sources. They are not 100% without risks and were not 100% effective in preventing people from getting the disease. This is true of every medical treatment ever contrived and does not mean the church needs to support every one who decides not to be vaccinated, just as they do not support those who decline other medical treatments because they are not 100% gauranteed and without risk. To expect the church to intervene in these cases is unreasonable. For pastor Vine to accuse the church leaders of malfeasance and to suggest that the leaders should resign is beyond unreasonable. To compensate every member who loses their job over their refusal to accept vaccination using church offerings would be misappropriation of the funds. To suggest that a parallel church structure should be organized if the SDA church does not agree to Mr. Vine’s demands is treason.
It’s hard to even know where to begin. Those who opposed the vaccine for the most part didn’t have to see or care for those dying of Covid 19 which did kill millions of people. That intelligent people charged with your protection saw the virulence of the disease and were able to predict the damage that it would do early in the course of the pandemic does not mean they planned it or were in any way responsible for it. The vaccines, and there were multiple different brands and types, were effective in preventing death and controlling the spread of the disease is proven in multiple studies from dozens of sources. They are not 100% without risks and were not 100% effective in preventing people from getting the disease. This is true of every medical treatment ever contrived and does not mean the church needs to support every one who decides not to be vaccinated, just as they do not support those who decline other medical treatments because they are not 100% guaranteed and without risk. To expect the church to intervene in these cases is unreasonable. For pastor Vine to accuse the church leaders of malfeasance and to suggest that the leaders should resign is beyond unreasonable. To compensate every member who loses their job over their refusal to accept vaccination using church offerings would be misappropriation of the funds. To suggest that a parallel church structure should be organized if the SDA church does not agree to Mr. Vine’s demands is treason.