We have enjoyed the many sermons we have heard from Dr Conrad Vine. They have been Bible based and speak to our heart.

Having come out of a top down church, (Mormonism) we are not used to this level of/ or lack of unity inside a church.

We are gratified to see that local congregations can speak up as the ultimate authority over their own congregation and elders rather than being forced to accept whatever Fiat was mandated from above. My parents got the Covid shot because that was supposedly “the inspired guidance of a prophet of the Lord” in Mormonism. Are health problems preceded from that point forward.

My wife is a doctor and many of our friends are doctors and many of us saw a problem with the vaccine. But the biggest problem we see is the spiritual attempt to quash the Liberty of conscience of individual SDA members.

Of similar concern is all the money that the various organizations in the church receive from the United Nations or at the various federal governments ostensibly through their medical institutions and some universities.

What value is Mammon if we are unable to evangelize and speak about Christ inside of those organizations accepting funds? And if we have to exchange our liberty of conscience?

Having run a rather large company it would seem that pride in the conference leadership is behind all of these extraordinary actions that are outside of the church manual.

May God come soon and cleanse his church. The doctrine of theology is exceptional sadly we humans are not.

Thank you so much for your kind and encouraging words, Don. May God be served.

Dear Elder Paulson:

Thank you for your kind and lucid response.

With respect, Keith and I would like to make several observations in reply; I apologize in advance for the length of this:

First, Dr. Vine was preaching, he was not delivering a comprehensive treatise on how exactly we might implement his suggestions regarding tithe and attendance, if and when they should become necessary. He did not need to, as that time is not yet here, nor to our understanding is Dr. Vine suggesting it is. But your questions are valid ones, and they bear consideration for the future. They do not appear to us as insurmountable difficulties, more as logistical ones.

Dr. Vine is looking ahead, and he may in fact be seeing a truth that others of us are not yet fully seeing: that, while not quite here, the Time of Trouble may be imminently upon us, and it behooves us to be ready for it, not only with homegrown vegetables, but with homegrown churches, for when the official churches have, for instance, been possibly banned by a rogue government. COVID provided ample evidence that our own US government is capable of something very similar already, and that our Constitution was of little use in that regard for quite a while.

We see greater potential problems in implementing Dr. Vine’s suggestion of making reparations for those who claim to have been harmed by the General Conference official pronouncements during COVID. How, for example would the GC be able to determine with any certainty, without court action, whose injuries were directly or indirectly caused by the vaccines; which of the claimants would definitely not have taken, or definitely would not have had to take, the vaccine were it not for those GC statements; how much financial remuneration to allot to each case; and so on.

But, while perhaps some of his ideas may be difficult if not impossible to implement, and the circumstances he foresees as possible may never occur exactly as he visualizes, we do not see either of these suggestions as indicative of any malice or church rule-breaking on the part of Dr. Vine, nor a reason to take the extreme step of banning him from pulpits.

Second, while you are, of course, correct that vaccine mandates are not specifically addressed by inspired writings, Dr. Vine clearly has in mind the principle of concern with such mandates, for which a Biblical case would appear easily made—that is, no government should be able to force pharmaceuticals upon any individual. This might be dictated by common sense, but perhaps it is especially clear to those of us who believe our bodies are veritable temples of God, and we, as the temporary custodians of these temples, are to be the sovereign deciders of what is to go into them, based on our Biblical understandings. As with coercing a Sabbath, many of us do not believe any argument for the “common good” would ever be adequate to force people to take any medication, let alone a vaccine that had been little studied, and for which the very definition of “vaccine” had to be changed.

Your strongest point would appear to be that tithes and offerings ought never be used as “weapons of protest.” This is of course true, but we do not see that Dr. Vine is suggesting the use of them in that sense, at all. Rather, it appears he is envisioning there may come a time when church leadership at either the General or the local conference level has gone so far afield from normative Biblical or SDA principles that it would be neither right nor good to any longer fund those elements with our tithe money.

This is far from suggesting tithe ought to be diverted away from the Church. On the contrary, Dr. Vine is proposing a way to keep it within the Church, by funding those Church elements that remain in line with the clearest of Biblical principles, when such have been abandoned by certain segments of leadership. Whether Vine’s idea to differentiate “woke” conferences from “unwoke” conferences, whatever he means by that terminology, is at all reasonable or workable remains to be discussed; it may not be.

In that case, we feel sure Dr. Vine would be very open to alternative options for making sure our tithe money is not improperly used in extreme cases, which is clearly what he is discussing. The argument, “Just give your money through regular church channels, and let the leadership answer for how it is used,” is not going to be well received by those many Adventists who have already seen what they perceive to be a trend toward intolerable and unrepented error in church leadership today.

As a single example apart from COVID, one of our local conferences recently allowed advertising of a “Drag Brunch” which was originally to be held on the campus of one of our largest SDA university churches. It was to be in conjunction with an LGBGQ+ weekend “Kamp Meeting” at that church, which to our understanding went ahead. After members raised concerns, the “Drag Brunch,” which was said to be child-inclusive, was moved off campus. Some of us would (and did) see such a thing as intolerable error, and I for one would not wish to long fund a conference or a local church or university that continued down such a path, once the truth of the situation were established and no corrective was made. Yet I would not want to leave the Adventist Church, nor withhold from it my tithe.

Finally, to your point about “political polarization”: Some of us have connected certain dots we think we see, from the encroachment of what some would call radical secular leftism to understanding that this scourge is slowly infiltrating every social institution, including the Church. Others of us see no such reality and make no such connection, and therefore will, by some lights, seriously misunderstand the moment we are in. We don’t have to demonize each other; rather, we need to allow that there may be some truth to either viewpoint, that growth in understanding is possible, and we should remain open to new information. Debate and discussion is not only good for science; it is good for religion, too.

Yes, religious denominations may and should have boundaries; they are what constitute a church. But, in our view, they should not be drawn so tight that manifestly dedicated pastors should be excluded from pulpits for merely talking about exigencies and possible pathways forward that may, in extremis, become necessary.

We earnestly pray God has guided us as we have written these words, or at least that they do not go contrary to His will.

All the best,
Janine (and Keith) Colburn

PS. You will notice that I have not marshaled any Bible texts or Ellen White quotes. Simply put, I am not generally a fan of either “proof texts” or “proof quotes,” as too often other texts or quotes within the same corpus could easily be brought forward to make the opposite point. I trust our readers have enough maturity and wisdom to discern at least broad brushes of truth from what they themselves have gleaned from their overall study of inspired writings, in many cases over decades, and that such controversies as this will drive us all to study and pray anew.

You seem removed from the real discussion about the mandates.

First, Dr Vine said a parachurch. Look up the term parachurch, is one beside a church & their function is to work along side to accomplish the mission.

Second, EGW had diverted tithe after the civil war to the Southern areas where lots of slaves were being converted, more then once.

Third, Dr Vine is not a pulpit minister, he is the president of the top Missionary Groups. He is not from US, and his wife is from Communist Russia. He was the Director of ADRA Eastern Europe because he got a degree in Business at first.

Forth, in totalitarian and socialist countries having a parachurch & underground church, is not that unusual. You could land yourself in death camps or hard labor camps.

Fifth, For the Michigan Conference not to consult with their local churches… on this is outside the scope of their job as they are acting in an autocratic manor.

Maybe they should take the speck out of someone elses eye AFTER they take the log out of their own… when has LGBTQ+ and DEI been allowed on our college compasses. Andrews, LaSierra and LLU all have this going on. Is this because if they dont they will not qualify with the Fed for financial aid grants and loans.

The universities all got incentives from students who agreed to take the shot for education incentives of 1000, 2000, 5000, and 10,000 USD.

The conferences and divisions all got bonuses for employers who inforced the vax mandate.

In 2022, At the GC Zierkle tried to get the church to change positions on helping people getting religious liberty Vaccine Mandates. This man made mRNA changed Gods DNA in humans… creating an amalgamation which is patentable.

Pr Vine tried to help Zerkle but got banned from as a constiuant at the GC Conferance.

Further, SOP states ministers and missionary Gospel workers and thier support staff is to be paid out Tithe – EGW HAS LOTS TO SAY ABOUT THIS.

Amazingly however, Advent Frontier Missions does not get paid out of tithe. Infact they get supporters to donate and I can attest, Dr Vine is very much a stickler about caring for God and your family first before you donate large sums to his charge. I have personally talked to him about this in December 2023 and in March… 2024.

Additionally, Judas was the treasurer for Christ and the 12 disciples. Jesus did not have the tithe they received to go to the Orthodox Jewish Church and Sanhedrin.

Who is the GC or Conferences to dictate what an individual does. It is not Dr Conrad Vine who gives the money, it is parishioners. If I chose to give my money to support Gods Missionaries and infrastructure… it is MY business.

I do not give tithe to people who support LGBTQ + in our churches and universities. I do not give tithe to an organisation that engage in this DEI stuff.

I do that! Not Dr Conrad, Not Amazing Facts, Not SUM

God does not want my tithe if I am not a cheerful giver.

Tithe has one purpose, to feed and support the gospel workers and missionaries.

No where have I read, Jesus or the disciples had a 401k. God does say that the tithe can support missionaries and I don’t think these people actually have a retirement date.

Further, Tithe is based on Increase and is also first fruits. If I work the land and Hurricane Helene comes along and destroys all my crops, do I have an Increase at the end of the year?

I still have to feed myself and my family. I still had to purchase Gas or Diesel for the tractor, cloths & shoes to work in, a place to lay my head. These expenses are fixed costs. I am not purchasing the Rolls Royce of tractors, though I might have a John Deere.

If I put in a 50,000 swimming pool to take a bath, when a 6000 dollar shower install would work, I own tithe on 44,000 extra because it was not necessity it is luxury.

Just think, if God had tithed the grain Joseph collected for Egypt? Under the current tithing system the GC advocates in manual.

All of my possessions, every year… (sounds like Personal Property Tax – like on your house or car) we know Tax Collectors were corrupt.

7 yrs… of plenty 7 of famine

Lets look at the first year harvest of the 14 yrs

10% yr 1
9% yr 2
8% yr 3
7% yr 4
6% yr 5
5% yr 6
4% yr 7

That is 49% of first year’s harvest preparing for a famine God told you to prepare for in advance.

These guys in these positions are possessed by Power, Greed. And steal the tithe in the way they manage it.

God did not set up a lot of what keeps being paid for. We have all this money going to schools and children who have 2 christian parents… but God has every three yrs tithe for widows and fatherless children.

Well, I can tell you… these churches and schools serve parishioners not the people who need help the most

I could go on.

Man was worshiping the god of science and pharmacuticals… well, read what Sister White has to say about Loma Linda and Glendale wanting to bow to the throne of Rockefeller’s AMA in getting credentials.

She calls Pharmacuticals toxic poison. (made with chemicals – not herbs and stuff.)

We were to open sanitariums and she outlined the health ministry. I do not ever remembering health care workers practicing “temperance” in a hospital. They want you to wake people up all day and night, with buzzers and ringers.

You get no rest in the hospital. And yet they say if you need to be in the hospital, you don’t need rest like 8 hours sleep.

Dr Vine is practicing in a World Church mode as he has mission fields in the 10/40 mission fields, all over.

He is preaching Religious Liberty on a scale few in US understand most have had a cushy life, live in big cities and wont come out.

The Midnight Cry is going to ring out…

We are not to be on beaches, cities, or just anywhere… we will need to flee to the mountains. How are your foraging skills?

May you be blessed and understand the root to which I am speaking to.

Pastor Conrad is doing Gods Work, and the people he leads are not in the US.

Michigan cant even do missionary work in much of their own state, let alone the world.

(BTW- I am a graduate of LLU SPH and have not worked as hard consistently since this C19 came out- 1978-present)

Brother Paulson, you have truly missed the point of Brother Vine’s presentation. The real issue is not about tithe (aka $$), an area many objecters of his message seems to be side tracked with.

The ‘church’ of the day took the ultimate silencing act when they crucified Jesus. It sure looks as though we SDA’s would have done the same!

Pray God we, repent and make good, to those harmed by very foolish decisions and actions.