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	Comments on: The Dark Side of Church Leadership and the End of Conservative Adventism	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Jeff Bentley		</title>
		<link>https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-62244</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Bentley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Sep 2024 04:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://adventmessenger.org/?p=19295#comment-62244</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Because we are known for our health message, we should have been more vocal in educating the members and the public about the dangers of allowing the powers that be to experiment on us with an unsafe and ineffective and even dangerous concoction. It was wonderful to see us embrace Dr. Peter McCullough and even have him as a guest speaker at events and in churches, but we should&#039;ve done more for each local church. The truth was out there, but obviously being censored while &quot;stupidity like lethargy&quot; hung over those getting their information from CNN and falling under the mass formation psychosis. I too am partly to blame and spoke mainly with those who were already in the know. The one time I was given the pulpit and did address some of the issues the pastor told me upon his return that he heard my sermon was &quot;too political.&quot; I haven&#039;t been asked to speak since. 
Prayer is our weapon of choice now. Pray the Lord will awaken more dumb dogs that won&#039;t bark to join the voice of Dr. Vine and the 3 angels messages, (which includes the health message) will swell to a loud cry that cannot be censored nor cancelled.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because we are known for our health message, we should have been more vocal in educating the members and the public about the dangers of allowing the powers that be to experiment on us with an unsafe and ineffective and even dangerous concoction. It was wonderful to see us embrace Dr. Peter McCullough and even have him as a guest speaker at events and in churches, but we should&#8217;ve done more for each local church. The truth was out there, but obviously being censored while &#8220;stupidity like lethargy&#8221; hung over those getting their information from CNN and falling under the mass formation psychosis. I too am partly to blame and spoke mainly with those who were already in the know. The one time I was given the pulpit and did address some of the issues the pastor told me upon his return that he heard my sermon was &#8220;too political.&#8221; I haven&#8217;t been asked to speak since.<br />
Prayer is our weapon of choice now. Pray the Lord will awaken more dumb dogs that won&#8217;t bark to join the voice of Dr. Vine and the 3 angels messages, (which includes the health message) will swell to a loud cry that cannot be censored nor cancelled.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Eric Doering		</title>
		<link>https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47646</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric Doering]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2023 00:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://adventmessenger.org/?p=19295#comment-47646</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47568&quot;&gt;Jim&lt;/a&gt;.

Amen brother... we must pray for their repentance like what happened to Saul of Tarsus so that they might stand up for and declare the truth.  However, in so doing, they will then cease to be leaders of the denominational church.  The corporate church has become a machine with unstoppable inertia.  If one leader were to come to his senses and declare that the church is a duck (if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...), then there would be hundreds, maybe thousands, of replacement candidates waiting in the wings.  While the testimony of one leader, or even a dozen leaders, might give of their conversion could have an effect of awakening some in the denominational membership, the corporate church will not change.  The point of no return has already been long passed.  The corporate church has united with the world.  For two, if not three generations, the leaders have been given an education in our schools to ensure their compliance with and commitment to the new religion.  They have been taught that the doctrine that now is espoused, is greater than and supersedes the doctrine that the pioneers were given under the direction, guidance and inspiration of the Spirit of Christ.  The arrogance of the system is described by Sister White in Early Writings in the chapter titled &quot;The ADVENT Movement Illustrated&quot;.  In other words, she was given a vision, or dream, as an illustration of the Seventh-day Adventist movement.  There can be little doubt as to whom and what she describes in the following pertains to [note, ALL CAPS are my emphasis]:

&quot;The MINISTERS and LEADING MEN were passing around in these different companies, fastening the cords more firmly; but still I heard this voice of earnest prayer. Then I saw those who had been praying reach out their hands for help toward the united company who were FREE, rejoicing in God. The answer from them, as they earnestly looked to heaven, and pointed upward, was, “COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM, AND BE SEPARATE.” I saw individuals struggling for freedom, and at last they broke the cords that bound them. They resisted the efforts which were made to fasten the cords tighter and refused to heed the repeated assertions: “GOD IS WITH US.” “WE HAVE THE TRUTH WITH US.”&quot; EW 242.1

We are witnessing this taking place now, and it will only increase with time.  The leaders go around binding the membership with cords... cords of tradition, cords of social responsibility (treasurer, sabbath school teacher, deacon, etc.), cords of doctrinal falsehood; all the while declaring in their hearing, &quot;WE HAVE THE TRUTH, GOD IS WITH US.&quot;  If you keep reading through the illustration Sister White wrote, as well as the following chapter with &quot;Another Illustration&quot;, you will find that the leadership and the corporate church does not repent or change direction.  This is a repetition of history as taught to us by the Jewish leaders and church of Christ&#039;s time.

It is truly a fearful time in the history of this earth to find yourself as a leader in the denomination.  For those leaders that haven&#039;t yet had their feet cemented firmly in place, they truly need our prayers.  Nicodemus would be an example of such a one.  Sadly, for those leaders whose fruits demonstrate their commitment to driving the denomination further into allegiance with the powers of the earth, I do not find an example of prayers being offered for them.  Caiaphas would be such an example.  Leaders of this type know their condition, they understand their God-given responsibility, but prefer to seek political or financial gain, even if it is for the corporate church and not for themselves personally.  Like Caiaphas, these leaders carry a heavy burden of guilt on their shoulders because they know the truth, but they push it aside in favor of the &quot;greater good&quot; - to advance the cause by their own strength and strategy.  Such have made their choice to take part with the dead in the lake of fire.  Their fruits show forth their own condemnation.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47568">Jim</a>.</p>
<p>Amen brother&#8230; we must pray for their repentance like what happened to Saul of Tarsus so that they might stand up for and declare the truth.  However, in so doing, they will then cease to be leaders of the denominational church.  The corporate church has become a machine with unstoppable inertia.  If one leader were to come to his senses and declare that the church is a duck (if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck&#8230;), then there would be hundreds, maybe thousands, of replacement candidates waiting in the wings.  While the testimony of one leader, or even a dozen leaders, might give of their conversion could have an effect of awakening some in the denominational membership, the corporate church will not change.  The point of no return has already been long passed.  The corporate church has united with the world.  For two, if not three generations, the leaders have been given an education in our schools to ensure their compliance with and commitment to the new religion.  They have been taught that the doctrine that now is espoused, is greater than and supersedes the doctrine that the pioneers were given under the direction, guidance and inspiration of the Spirit of Christ.  The arrogance of the system is described by Sister White in Early Writings in the chapter titled &#8220;The ADVENT Movement Illustrated&#8221;.  In other words, she was given a vision, or dream, as an illustration of the Seventh-day Adventist movement.  There can be little doubt as to whom and what she describes in the following pertains to [note, ALL CAPS are my emphasis]:</p>
<p>&#8220;The MINISTERS and LEADING MEN were passing around in these different companies, fastening the cords more firmly; but still I heard this voice of earnest prayer. Then I saw those who had been praying reach out their hands for help toward the united company who were FREE, rejoicing in God. The answer from them, as they earnestly looked to heaven, and pointed upward, was, “COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM, AND BE SEPARATE.” I saw individuals struggling for freedom, and at last they broke the cords that bound them. They resisted the efforts which were made to fasten the cords tighter and refused to heed the repeated assertions: “GOD IS WITH US.” “WE HAVE THE TRUTH WITH US.”&#8221; EW 242.1</p>
<p>We are witnessing this taking place now, and it will only increase with time.  The leaders go around binding the membership with cords&#8230; cords of tradition, cords of social responsibility (treasurer, sabbath school teacher, deacon, etc.), cords of doctrinal falsehood; all the while declaring in their hearing, &#8220;WE HAVE THE TRUTH, GOD IS WITH US.&#8221;  If you keep reading through the illustration Sister White wrote, as well as the following chapter with &#8220;Another Illustration&#8221;, you will find that the leadership and the corporate church does not repent or change direction.  This is a repetition of history as taught to us by the Jewish leaders and church of Christ&#8217;s time.</p>
<p>It is truly a fearful time in the history of this earth to find yourself as a leader in the denomination.  For those leaders that haven&#8217;t yet had their feet cemented firmly in place, they truly need our prayers.  Nicodemus would be an example of such a one.  Sadly, for those leaders whose fruits demonstrate their commitment to driving the denomination further into allegiance with the powers of the earth, I do not find an example of prayers being offered for them.  Caiaphas would be such an example.  Leaders of this type know their condition, they understand their God-given responsibility, but prefer to seek political or financial gain, even if it is for the corporate church and not for themselves personally.  Like Caiaphas, these leaders carry a heavy burden of guilt on their shoulders because they know the truth, but they push it aside in favor of the &#8220;greater good&#8221; &#8211; to advance the cause by their own strength and strategy.  Such have made their choice to take part with the dead in the lake of fire.  Their fruits show forth their own condemnation.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Eric Doering		</title>
		<link>https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47641</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric Doering]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2023 22:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://adventmessenger.org/?p=19295#comment-47641</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47391&quot;&gt;Cris&lt;/a&gt;.

I don&#039;t have your email address.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47391">Cris</a>.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have your email address.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jim		</title>
		<link>https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47568</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2023 20:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://adventmessenger.org/?p=19295#comment-47568</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[We need to pray for our leaders.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We need to pray for our leaders.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Kevin B. Selby		</title>
		<link>https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47439</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin B. Selby]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2023 15:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://adventmessenger.org/?p=19295#comment-47439</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[and again I will ask (as did brother John Grosboll waaaaay back in the 90s): WHO AND WHAT IS THE CHURCH?
If you believe the buildings, the 5013C garbage, the hierarchical (just like popery) organization and/or the absolute political voice of the SDA conference is &quot;the church&quot;, then you will have to square all the apostasy they have committed with the statements that &quot;the church will go through&quot;. 
AND YOU CANNOT SQUARE THOSE. Can&#039;t. 

So...the church must be God&#039;s true believers who obey the commandments of God and have the Spirit of Prophecy. What are you going to do when &quot;the church&quot; fully apostatizes and stops keeping the Sabbath or at least goes along with a Sunday law? You gonna keep saying &quot;the church will go through...the church will go through...&quot;. No. You aren&#039;t. Because they aren&#039;t the church.

Someone asked &quot;where are the watchmen&quot;? Well...here&#039;s a hint: they probably ARE NOT &quot;in the church&quot;. Independent ministries popped up right as I was becoming an SDA and I saw the issue back then (even as a new member). The established &quot;church&quot; was going into apostasy. 

Meanwhile, the papacy, as alerted by this very website, is seeking to gain its ascendency back...evil never sleeps, people. 

It&#039;s time to wake up and wake others up.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and again I will ask (as did brother John Grosboll waaaaay back in the 90s): WHO AND WHAT IS THE CHURCH?<br />
If you believe the buildings, the 5013C garbage, the hierarchical (just like popery) organization and/or the absolute political voice of the SDA conference is &#8220;the church&#8221;, then you will have to square all the apostasy they have committed with the statements that &#8220;the church will go through&#8221;.<br />
AND YOU CANNOT SQUARE THOSE. Can&#8217;t. </p>
<p>So&#8230;the church must be God&#8217;s true believers who obey the commandments of God and have the Spirit of Prophecy. What are you going to do when &#8220;the church&#8221; fully apostatizes and stops keeping the Sabbath or at least goes along with a Sunday law? You gonna keep saying &#8220;the church will go through&#8230;the church will go through&#8230;&#8221;. No. You aren&#8217;t. Because they aren&#8217;t the church.</p>
<p>Someone asked &#8220;where are the watchmen&#8221;? Well&#8230;here&#8217;s a hint: they probably ARE NOT &#8220;in the church&#8221;. Independent ministries popped up right as I was becoming an SDA and I saw the issue back then (even as a new member). The established &#8220;church&#8221; was going into apostasy. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, the papacy, as alerted by this very website, is seeking to gain its ascendency back&#8230;evil never sleeps, people. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s time to wake up and wake others up.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Shawn Speidel		</title>
		<link>https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47414</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shawn Speidel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Oct 2023 21:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://adventmessenger.org/?p=19295#comment-47414</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wow, what a message Mr. Suntag! That is absolutely spot on. I agree with the whole article. I believe now that the vast majority of baptized Seventh-day Adventists have become mere reflectors of other men’s thoughts from our false education. We have become lemmings, all heading over a cliff (but together as a community). Man following man and man’s confused ways instead of their God and His ways. 

I and my wife have voiced many concerns of which the last one, which Eric Doering spoke of, caused us to become dSDA’s (disfellowshipped and not registered trademarked Seventh-day Adventists). To my knowledge (and obvious experience) this is the most sure fire way of becoming a dSDA. It proves who is into group think and who is coming and reasoning with their God. 

Brothers and Sisters,
The new organization is nearly fully formed, armed with the state and is beginning to persecute. Watch out! Be on your guard. Unless this organization repents it could become the most valuable resource for the most persecuting power (Rome) ever known. 

(Rev. 14:12, AV)
“‭12‭ ‭Here‭ is‭‭ the patience‭ of the saints‭: here‭ ‭are‭ they that keep‭‭ the commandments‭ of God‭, and‭ the faith‭ of Jesus‭.‭”

How can we believe this verse when the Seventh-day Adventist®&#xfe0f; Church has a new triune god? All 10 Commandments are broken right now including the fourth!  The three angels messages depends on us understanding that God is the Father and His Son is a mirror express image of His Father. What is so complicated about this?

“Express image” of Heb. 1:3 is Gk for “charakter”

Col. 1:15 “image of the invisible God” is “eikon“

Until we stop looking to man (other denominations, the state and the ecclesiastical Church-state of Rome) and look to God through Christ we will be separated from our power, unity and love. The church had in 1872-1914 “entire unanimity” on doctrines (not creeds but a Fundamental Principles set forth for the non-Adventists for a snapshot). We now have creeds.

I believe repentance is possible yes, but the laity must now all wake up and voice God’s thoughts from the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy as a check against the kingly powers. We need a representative style of government back and God will raise up those leaders. Right now we must Cry aloud and spare not and call sin by its right name!

Blessings on this Sabbath!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, what a message Mr. Suntag! That is absolutely spot on. I agree with the whole article. I believe now that the vast majority of baptized Seventh-day Adventists have become mere reflectors of other men’s thoughts from our false education. We have become lemmings, all heading over a cliff (but together as a community). Man following man and man’s confused ways instead of their God and His ways. </p>
<p>I and my wife have voiced many concerns of which the last one, which Eric Doering spoke of, caused us to become dSDA’s (disfellowshipped and not registered trademarked Seventh-day Adventists). To my knowledge (and obvious experience) this is the most sure fire way of becoming a dSDA. It proves who is into group think and who is coming and reasoning with their God. </p>
<p>Brothers and Sisters,<br />
The new organization is nearly fully formed, armed with the state and is beginning to persecute. Watch out! Be on your guard. Unless this organization repents it could become the most valuable resource for the most persecuting power (Rome) ever known. </p>
<p>(Rev. 14:12, AV)<br />
“‭12‭ ‭Here‭ is‭‭ the patience‭ of the saints‭: here‭ ‭are‭ they that keep‭‭ the commandments‭ of God‭, and‭ the faith‭ of Jesus‭.‭”</p>
<p>How can we believe this verse when the Seventh-day Adventist®️ Church has a new triune god? All 10 Commandments are broken right now including the fourth!  The three angels messages depends on us understanding that God is the Father and His Son is a mirror express image of His Father. What is so complicated about this?</p>
<p>“Express image” of Heb. 1:3 is Gk for “charakter”</p>
<p>Col. 1:15 “image of the invisible God” is “eikon“</p>
<p>Until we stop looking to man (other denominations, the state and the ecclesiastical Church-state of Rome) and look to God through Christ we will be separated from our power, unity and love. The church had in 1872-1914 “entire unanimity” on doctrines (not creeds but a Fundamental Principles set forth for the non-Adventists for a snapshot). We now have creeds.</p>
<p>I believe repentance is possible yes, but the laity must now all wake up and voice God’s thoughts from the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy as a check against the kingly powers. We need a representative style of government back and God will raise up those leaders. Right now we must Cry aloud and spare not and call sin by its right name!</p>
<p>Blessings on this Sabbath!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Cris		</title>
		<link>https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47391</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cris]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Oct 2023 03:23:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://adventmessenger.org/?p=19295#comment-47391</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47364&quot;&gt;Eric Doering&lt;/a&gt;.

Well said Eric. Can you please email me?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47364">Eric Doering</a>.</p>
<p>Well said Eric. Can you please email me?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom		</title>
		<link>https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47374</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Oct 2023 08:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://adventmessenger.org/?p=19295#comment-47374</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[God help the faithful to remain true and the compromised to repent. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God help the faithful to remain true and the compromised to repent. </p>
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		<title>
		By: MaryJane Lewis		</title>
		<link>https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47369</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MaryJane Lewis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Oct 2023 04:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://adventmessenger.org/?p=19295#comment-47369</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47355&quot;&gt;YesMsJane&lt;/a&gt;.

I praise the Lord for the honest-hearted, plain-spoken children of God who give added strength and encouragement to the brethren!
In God&#039;s Hands, His  TRUE Organized Church Leaders and His TRUE Church Laymen-Leadership will swell the ranks and prevail! Homeward
Bound, we ARE Homeward Bound IN CHRIST JESUS TODAY!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://adventmessenger.org/the-dark-side-of-church-leadership-and-the-end-of-conservative-adventism/comment-page-1/#comment-47355">YesMsJane</a>.</p>
<p>I praise the Lord for the honest-hearted, plain-spoken children of God who give added strength and encouragement to the brethren!<br />
In God&#8217;s Hands, His  TRUE Organized Church Leaders and His TRUE Church Laymen-Leadership will swell the ranks and prevail! Homeward<br />
Bound, we ARE Homeward Bound IN CHRIST JESUS TODAY!</p>
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